【双语经典】中国驻英大使舌战BBC主播

中国驻英国大使馆网站消息，6月29日，刘晓明大使接受英国广播公司BBC广播四台早间王牌时政节目《今日》主持人汉弗莱斯直播专访，阐释香港特别行政区成立20年发展成就及中国“一国两制”的成功实践，回答了有关香港政改、中国国际地位及朝核问题等提问。

采访实录：

Humphrys: I am joined in the studio by the Chinese Ambassador to this country, Liu Xiaoming. Good morning to you.

汉弗莱斯：刘大使，早上好。

Liu: Good morning.

刘大使：早上好。  

Humphrys: Isn't it the reality that it is "one country", increasingly,"one system"?

汉弗莱斯：有人说香港日益成为“一国一制”，这是不是事实？

Liu: No. I think "one country, two systems" has been implemented with great success. I can't agree with some of the interviews aired just before me saying that China did not deliver its promises. As a matter of fact, the Central Government of China delivered everything it promises, that is "one country, two systems". I think that basically Hong Kong has maintained its social, economic system, way of life, rule of law, and I think Hong Kong now is much better placed compared with 20 years ago. So this is really an occasion for us to have a grand celebration.

刘大使：这不是事实。“一国两制”在香港得到成功实施。在我之前接受采访者说中国中央政府没有兑现承诺，我不同意这种观点。事实是，中国中央政府完全兑现了“一国两制”的承诺。我认为，按照《基本法》和“一国两制”原则，香港社会制度、经济制度、生活方式、法律制度保持稳定。与20年前相比，香港变得更好了，此时此刻的确值得我们隆重庆祝。

I think in the past 20 years we've seen Hong Kong maintaining prosperity and stability, the GDP doubled, and foreign exchange reserve quadrupled. Hong Kong still remains a global centre of finance, trade and shipping. The life expectancy of its people increased tremendously. They are ahead of many developed countries. So I would say people in Hong Kong are now living longer and living happier.

20年来，我们看到香港经济繁荣，社会稳定，GDP翻番，外汇储备增长了三倍多。香港继续保持国际金融、贸易、航运中心地位，香港人均寿命大幅增加，超过许多发达国家，人民生活幸福。

Humphrys: Nobody I think would argue that there has been economic prosperity in Hong Kong. That is accepted. But listen to what somebody like Anson Chan, the former chief secretary of both the British colonial government and the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region says. She makes the point that we are seeing now and it has been seen, over the last twenty years, a serious erosion of the rights and the common law, the independent judiciary. The impression we get, she said, is that China is determined to tighten its grip, and there is clear evidence for that, isn't there?

汉弗莱斯：没有人怀疑香港的经济繁荣，这是公认的，但前香港政务司司长陈方安生说，20年来香港人权、普通法体制、独立司法权一直而且正在逐步受到严重侵蚀，给人的印象是，中央政府很显然决心收紧对香港的管控。对此你怎么看？

Liu: I don't think so. I don't agree with her. I think if people compare the political governance of Hong Kong today, including democratic governance of Hong Kong today with what was 20 years ago...

刘大使：我不这么认为，我也不同意这种说法。我认为，人们只需要把香港20年前和现在的政治管理、民主政制做一番比较，就可以得出结论。

Humphrys: A democratic government?

汉弗莱斯：民主政府？

Liu: Democratic governance.

刘大使：民主治理。

Humphrys: Really?

汉弗莱斯：真的吗？

Liu: Let me say: 20 years ago, did you have election in Hong Kong? Who elected the governor of Hong Kong?

刘大使：20年前，香港有选举吗？港督是选出来的吗？

Humphrys: It was a colony. Nobody would argue other than that. It was a colony and there was a governor there and it was fine.

汉弗莱斯：没有人质疑这个，因为那时候香港还是殖民地。

Liu: In the past 20 years there were 5 elections in Hong Kong.

刘大使：但在过去20年，香港举行了五次特区行政长官选举。

Humphrys: And the last leader was elected with 777 votes, 0.03 percent of the registered electors. That doesn't sound very convincing.

汉弗莱斯：但香港新任特首仅得到了选举委员会的777票，这一数字仅代表了0.03%的香港民众，听起来不太令人信服。

Liu: Number does not tell you everything.

刘大使：数据并不能说明问题。

Humphrys: It tells you a lot in a democratic system.

汉弗莱斯：但数字在民主体制中很说明问题。

Liu: What about here in the UK? What about UK's national leader? You have 65 million people and your national leaders get elected from their constituency of tens of thousands of voters, by a very small majority. People can challenge that it doesn't represent the population of the entire country.

刘大使：如果拿数字说事，那么英国国家领导人选举又是如何呢？6500万人口的国家领导人只是在其几万人的选区内以微弱多数取胜，是不是就不能代表整个国家人民的意志？！

Humphrys: The number of people who voted for the British Prime Minister ultimately was more than 0.03 percent and there we go. All right, let's...

汉弗莱斯：英国首相得到的选票还是超过了0.03%。这件事就不说了。

Liu: Hong Kong's chief executive is elected according to the Basic Law, according to the Election Law in Hong Kong...

刘大使：我想强调的是，香港特首的选举是严格按照《基本法》和香港特区有关选举法律进行的…

Humphrys: But it has to be approved...

汉弗莱斯：不过，香港特首还是得到批准…

Liu: You have to achieve this through incremental, gradual process and step-by-step. As we say, Rome or maybe London is not built overnight and Hong Kong is not built overnight.

刘大使：而且民主选举进程是一个不断发展、渐进的过程。俗话说，“罗马不是一天建成的”，我也可以说伦敦不是一天建成的，香港也不是一天建成的。

Humphrys: This is certainly true but in democracies you don't lock up people and take away people for selling books of which you disapprove. But that has been happening in Hong Kong. And that is disgraceful in something that calls itself at least, democracy...

汉弗莱斯：这是当然的。但是在民主体制下，你不能随意关押或带走一个销售政府不认可的书籍的人。这样的事发生在民主的香港是不光彩的。

Liu: I don't know any of this case that...

刘大使：哪有这样的事…

Humphrys: In 2015 there was the abduction, that you may very well know, of 5 book sellers all of whom were involved in publishing books with gossipy and critical titles about China's elites. We know what happened while they were arrested when one of them, when he was released, he held a press conference in which he expressed that he was forcefully detained by Chinese authorities and was put in solitary confinement for 8 months for selling books.

汉弗莱斯：2015年有五位书商因为售书被强制拘捕，其中一个后来公开称自己被强制带走并关押了8个月。

Liu: But I had different reports that the book sellers went to China to help investigation on their own. There was no ...

刘大使：我所了解的不是这样。当事人是自愿到大陆配合调查的。不存在……

Humphrys: Voluntarily? They left their home, left their businesses and they just went off to China on their own? Voluntarily?

汉弗莱斯：自愿的？他们离开自己的生意、离开家，就是自愿接受调查？

Liu: On their own, voluntarily. They expressed this in their press conference. I read some reports about the so-called arrest, they've been taken to China by coercion, by force...There's no truth in it.

刘大使：是他们自己，是自愿的。他们在新闻发布会是这么讲的。我也看到一些消息，称书商被强制带走、收监等，这些不是事实。

Humphrys: No truth in it?

汉弗莱斯：不是事实？

Liu: No truth at all. Whom should I believe? Do we believe them who said this on their own or do we believe in rumors ?

刘大使：不是事实。我要相信谁呢？ 我们不应该轻信谣传，我相信当事人自己说的话。

Humphrys: Well in that case you believe in what Lam Wing Kee said. We've spent too much time on this but thankfully he did hold a press conference and he did say he was locked up, put in solitary confinement...Alright, let's move on from that.

汉弗莱斯：在那种情况下，你相信林荣基(Lam Wing-kee)的话。我们在这个话题上聊了很多，不过，他的确作过新闻发布，但他也说过他被拘禁。我们换一个话题。

Liu: And I would say when you look at a society, whether it is free or not free, you should have a big picture. You can not only focus on some discontented people, focus on some complaints...

刘大使：当你判断一个国家是“自由”还是“不自由”时，你应该看大局，不能只看到个别心怀不满的人对社会的抱怨。

Humphrys: There are always discontented people but we do not lock them up.

汉弗莱斯：总是有心怀不满的人，不过却不会将他们拘禁。

Liu: No, not locked up at all.

刘大使：不，没有拘禁。

Humphrys: Why in that case do you think that the foreign office says... You know there was a report by the foreign office in February 2016 and Boris Johnson, our present Foreign Secretary, has said in the case, going back to the case of booksellers, he talks about the involuntary removal from Hong Kong to the mainland constitutes serious breach of the Sino-British Joint Declaration by underming the "one country, two systems" principle. And that is what the British Government fears has happened, that is, the principle has been undermined.

汉弗莱斯：2016年2月英国外交部发表了《香港问题半年报告》，外交大臣约翰逊发表了一个讲话，说中国大陆从香港带走书商严重违背了《中英联合声明》，破坏了“一国两制”的原则，也就是说，英国政府不愿看到的事情却发生了。

Liu: I think when you read the report, first of all, we disagree with this so-called Report on Hong Kong, which was published twice a year. We think Hong Kong is an integral part of China, and Hong Kong's affairs are internal affairs of China. It's not for foreign governments to interfere. Having said that, even with this report, the British Government commends the Chinese Government for implementing "one country, two systems" and they believe "one country, two systems" is a great success. There are some differences between China and the UK but on the whole we all believe that long-term stability, long-term prosperity in Hong Kong are in the interests of not only China but also in the interests of Britain and the international community. On this so-called book sellers' case, we had quite a few interactions, discussions on the government levels. I personally engaged with British officials from Foreign Office and we told them what we heard and what we believed are the facts.

刘大使：关于这个报告，首先，我们反对英国政府每年发表两次所谓香港问题报告的做法。香港是中国不可分割的一部分，香港事务纯属中国内部事务，不容任何外部势力干涉。然而，即使在这样的报告中，英国政府也赞赏中国政府执行“一国两制”政策，承认香港“一国两制”实践取得巨大成功。虽然中英之间存在一些分歧，但是双方都认为，香港长期繁荣和稳定不仅符合中国的利益，而且符合英国的利益，同时也符合国际社会的利益。在所谓“书商事件”上，中英两国政府间有许多沟通交流渠道，我本人也参与过一些讨论，我们与英国外交部之间的沟通是畅通的。

Humphrys: And many people looking at your country from the outside believe that the facts are the elections are orchestrated, the protesters are locked up and democracy is being weakened rather than strengthened and your response now, in the end, is to say that it's our country.

汉弗莱斯：在外人看来，香港的选举受到操纵，示威者被关押，民主被削弱。中国认为民主加强了，并且香港是“我们国家”的。

Liu: When you say "one country, two systems", I think some people forget that this is one framework. You have to remember that Hong Kong is part of China, not part of UK, and not a so-called independent entity.

刘大使： “一国两制”是一个有机整体，有的人讲“一国两制”，只谈“两制”而忽视了“一国”，忘记了香港是中国的一部分，而不是英国的一部分，更不是一个独立实体。

Humphrys: And therefore it has to be a single system?

汉弗莱斯：那就是“一种制度”了？

Liu: Two systems. You told me your last visit to China was 12 years ago. You need to go to Hong Kong, to go to China, to see the changes. Even in the area where we have a difference, on democracy, you have to compare Hong Kong today with Hong Kong 20 years ago. You have to compare Hong Kong now with Hong Kong one year, two years ago.

刘大使：是两种制度。采访前你告诉我，你是12年前去的中国。你应该再去中国看看，去香港看看，看看发生的变化。即便我们之间在诸如“民主”等概念上看法有差异，我们也应该把今天的香港和20年前的香港、和两年前、甚至一年前的香港对比着来看。

Humphrys: Can we talk about China's place in the world at large? Do you see the day, perhaps not very far away, when China will be the world's great superpower instead of the United States, as it is today?

汉弗莱斯：我们来谈谈中国在世界的地位，你是否认为中国取代美国成为世界第一“超级大国”指日可待？

Liu: I do not foresee that China will become a superpower in the foreseeable future. I believe China is still a developing country.

刘大使：我不认为中国在可预见的将来成为“超级大国”，我认为中国仍然是一个发展中国家。

Humphrys: Even when China becomes the largest economy in the world?

汉弗莱斯：中国如果成为最大的经济体，还是发展中国家吗？

Liu: Even when China becomes the largest economy in the world, it will take a long way for China to become so-called superpower. China is a large country, and there are great differences between regions. After serving as Ambassador in Egypt, I was seconded to one of the poorest provinces in China, Gansu. It is very poor, much poorer than, the Americans used to call their west "Wild West", I think it's poorer than "Wild West".

刘大使：即使有一天中国经济总量达到世界第一，中国要成为所谓的“超级大国”路还很长，中国地域辽阔，地区发展差异很大。我在担任驻埃及大使后，曾经在中国西部最贫困的省份之一甘肃省工作过，有点像当年美国“荒凉的西部”。

Humphrys: So what will it take, as you've said, you are the second largest economy, you may very well very soon become the largest in the world, so what will it take for you to be the world's superpower?

汉弗莱斯：中国现在是第二大经济体，很可能很快发展成为第一大经济体，中国要怎样做才能成为“超级大国”？

Liu: We are not interested in becoming a superpower...

刘大使：我们对成为“超级大国”不感兴趣。

Humphrys: Oh you are not...

汉弗莱斯：哦，你们不…

Liu: We are interested in improving the livelihood of the people, and addressing the disparity between regions. When people look at China, they like to focus on the coastal region, the eastern part of China-- Beijing, Shanghai, Guangdong. They are very much developed. For example Guandong is the 15th largest economy in the world. It's about the size of Spain. But if you look at other provinces -- Gansu, Ningxia, they are rather backward...

刘大使：我们感兴趣的是改善中国人民的生活，解决地区发展不平衡等问题。许多外国人只看到北京、上海、广东等东部沿海地区，这些地区的确比较发达。比如广东省经济规模相当于西班牙，在世界上可以排第15位，但是中国西部的甘肃、宁夏等省区经济还是很落后的。

Humphrys: Just a final thought about North Korea and its threat to, potentially, world peace. What would it take for North Korea to so disturb you in Beijing that you will take action against the North Korean regime? What would they have to do for you to say, enough, we are now going to intervene?

汉弗莱斯：最后谈谈朝鲜对世界和平的潜在威胁。朝鲜给中国造成的干扰要达到什么样的程度，中国才会说：够了，我们要采取行动了，要介入了。

Liu: China has done a lot. Before I came here I was Ambassador in North Korea--I'd been there for 3 and half years. China actively engaged with North Korea. We tried to persuade them to give up their nuclear programme?

刘大使：我认为中国为缓和半岛局势已经做了大量工作。你知道，我来英国之前曾在中国驻朝鲜大使的岗位上工作了三年半。实际上，中国一直在积极做朝鲜工作，竭力说服朝鲜弃核。

Humphrys: And it's failed?

汉弗莱斯：但这些努力都失败了？

Liu: No, I can't say it's failed. Sometimes we make two steps forward, one step backward, and one step forward, two steps backward. But North Korea nuclear programme is a complicated issue. It has to be addressed comprehensively. A comprehensive approach is necessary. That's why China proposed to have this "dual suspension", "double track" approach. That means, on the one hand, we should keep sanctions in place, we should persuade North Korea to give up their nuclear programme and on the other hand...

刘大使：不能说失败了，有时候“进两步退一步”、有时候“进一步退两步”。朝核问题十分复杂，需要综合施策，采取综合全面的措施是必要的，所以我们提出了“双暂停”倡议和“双轨”思路，也就是说，一方面采取制裁措施，说服朝鲜弃核，另一方面......

Humphrys: And if you fail, the United State will intervene...

汉弗莱斯：如果不放弃，美国就介入......

Liu: On the other hand, the United States, South Korea and other countries should also take steps. They should suspend their military exercises. Each time I tried to persuade North Koreans to give up their nuclear programme, they said, we are threatened by big superpower, the States, joined by their allies. They have done many military exercises directed at North Korea.

刘大使：另一方面，美国和韩国也应该采取措施，暂停军事演习。记得当年，我每次劝说朝鲜放弃核计划，朝鲜方面就会说，他们受到了美国这个“超级大国”及其盟友的威胁，他们的军事演习直接针对朝鲜。

So we are calling for "dual suspension": North Korean suspend their nuclear program; Americans, South Koreans, their allies suspend their military exercises. Then we return to the negotiation table and start talks to find solution for a nuclear-free Korean Peninsula and a mechanism for lasting peace. We call it "dual track".

所以我们呼吁“双暂停”，即朝鲜停止核试，美国及其盟国停止军事演习。然后大家回到谈判桌来，通过对话解决问题，并行推进实现半岛无核化和建立半岛和平机制，这就是我们所说的“双轨”思路。

Humphrys: Alright, Ambassador, many thanks for joining us.

汉弗莱斯：大使先生，非常感谢你今天接受采访。

Liu: Thank you for having me.

刘大使：谢谢。

精彩回顾

其实，这并不是刘晓明大使第一次舌战英国BBC主播。早在2015年9月3日，刘晓明大使就曾在英国BBC强档品牌节目“新闻之夜”（Newsnight）节目中，舌战主持人罗伯特·佩斯顿（Robert Peston）。

访谈中，刘晓明就“中国威胁论”、中国股市等敏感、尖锐话题，与BBC主持人展开激烈辩论，回答之精彩，引起了网友们的热议。一起来回顾一下吧~

采访中文翻译：

主持人：我们今天邀请来的是中国驻英国大使刘晓明先生。每当我想到中国的时候，我想到的是一个国土巨大、正在逐渐现代化，逐渐富有的国家。但是当我们今天看到这各种让人震撼的阅兵场面之后...总有些让人觉得是不是中国又回到了“毛泽东时代”。中国是不是在又一次向世界发出信息：中国是一个危险且令人生畏的国家？

刘晓明：我认为你得出的这个印象是错误的。事实上，我们的信息响亮而明确，这就是和平。和平来之不易，理当珍惜和维护。中国将为维护世界和平和地区稳定做出自己的贡献。习近平主席在10多分钟的讲话中，18次提到了“和平”。这就是中国发出的信息。

主持人：可是就在今天，当美国总统奥巴马还在阿拉斯加时，几艘中国军舰正好出现在靠近阿拉斯加的公海上。这是巧合吗？

刘晓明：我想，我们还是先谈一下今天的纪念大会，之后我再回到你的这个问题。

当我说和平来之不易，其实在西方没有多少人了解中国人民为抗日战争做出了多大的牺牲。

事实上，第二次世界大战开始于中国。中国人民抗日战争开始时间最早、持续时间最长、伤亡人数最多。3500万中国军民伤亡，占世界各国伤亡总人数约三分之一，是二战中伤亡人数最多的国家。

因此中国人民把抗日战争和世界反法西斯战争胜利70周年视为一个庆祝胜利、缅怀先烈的重要时刻。

主持人：但是这样和平需要中国军费每年用如此之快的速度增长吗？去年增长12%，今年增长10%。这是一笔巨大的开支哟。

刘晓明：请你不要忘记，中国是一个大国。按国土面积说，中国是英国的40倍。按人口说，是英国的20倍。

但是，中国的人均军费仅是美国的1/22，是英国的1/9。

而且中国军费占GDP的比例是逐年下降的。实际上，今年是过去5年来最低的。中国有辽阔的国土需要保卫，此外，中国军队承担着多重任务。

主持人：然而考虑到当前中国经济的增长速度，我认为中国军费占GDP的比例事实上该是略有上升的。你刚才谈到中国要维护稳定，然而美国共和党总统参选人Donald Trump说中国人想要饿死美国人，你对此有何评论？

刘晓明：我不认为他这个言论代表美国主流民意。

主持人：（打断插入）但如果他当选美国总统呢？你认为这种可能性有多大？

刘晓明：这是一个非常假设性的问题，我不知道如果是你会怎么回答这种假设性的问题，但是我是不会回答假设性问题的。

但我可以肯定地告诉你，我们愿意和美国建立良好关系。在访谈开始前播出的节目中，你说中国想挑战美国的世界主导地位，甚至挑战美国的世界领导地位。这不是中国的立场，我们无意这么做。

中国在实现自身发展方面已经面临足够多的挑战，我们无意去挑战美国的主导地位。我认为中美在亚太地区应该成为好伙伴。

主持人：那中国举行阅兵式是为了展示军力，然后转移人们对中国经济下滑的注意力吗？因为很多经济学家认为中国经济面临严重问题。

刘晓明：我认为西方观察家们夸大了中国经济的困难。虽然中国经济确实面临一些困难，但这在中国发展过程中是正常的。

主持人：（再次打断插入）中国股市市值蒸发了5万亿美元，这是小数目吗？

刘晓明：我认为股市有自己的运行规律。股市有涨有跌，美国股市也是如此。我们要看中国经济的全貌。中国经济的基本面是好的。今年上半年中国GDP增长了7%。光是这增长出的7%，就相当于世界第20大经济体瑞士的GDP总量。

主持人：习近平主席表示希望让中国经济更加现代化，使市场更加自由化。而自由市场的一个重要组成部分，就是人民应该能自由地表达对市场的意见。而在中国，一些记者和基金经理因为涉嫌制造股市恐慌被逮捕。这对西方人来说是十分令人震惊的。

刘晓明：中国人民享有言论自由。在你所说的案件中，那些人违反了法律。中国是法治国家。

主持人：（再次打断）我说过很多关于英国的股市很可怕的话，比那些人说中国股市的话要可怕得多。你觉得英国政府应该逮捕我吗？

刘晓明：那些人不仅仅是发表评论。他们制造谣言，引起市场恐慌。中英两国国情不同，法律制度也不尽相同。可能一些行为在英国可能不违法，而在中国则不同，如果违法，就要受到法律的惩处。

主持人：非常感谢，大使先生。

刘晓明：谢谢。